Update: The community councils and a local retirement center today sent the city a letter asking for reconsideration of the permit.
Both the Maple Leaf and the Wedgwood community councils have gone on record as opposing Pandora’s Adult Caberet, prompting KOMO to air a report from the parking lot of the soon-to-be strip club.
The councils claim the new club, at the site of the defunct Seven Seas Restaurant, 8914 Lake City Way N.E., is too close to a day-care center (which they don’t want to name). Their arguments, including that proper public notice was not given, are summarized on the Wedgwood council’s website.
The councils say that day care is 600 feet from the club, which is currently being remodeled. According to code, clubs must be more than 800 feet from legally recognized or permitted public park and open spaces, community centers, elementary or secondary schools, or child care centers.
“We have a child care use that has been licensed by the state for over 10 years serving members of the community in what happens to be someone’s home,” Per Johnson, of the Wedgwood council, wrote to the city. “The project should be started over again,” David Miller, of the Maple Leaf council, told KOMO.
Miller and his council were instrumental in the successful fight last year to save a grove of 80 mature Douglas fir trees at the old Waldo hospital in Maple Leaf. Miller later ran, without success, for the Seattle City Council.
But the city distinguishes between in-home daycare and “child care centers,” Bryan Stevens of the Seattle Department of Planning and Development, told KOMO.
“We haven’t made a mistake,” Stevens said. “As far as I know, there’s no legal recourse at this point.”
The club’s location, at Lake City Way Northeast and Northeast 90th Street, straddles the Maple Leaf/Wedgwood community divide. It is also kitty-corner from The Stratford at Maple Leaf, a retirement community (and Maple Leaf Life advertiser) which also joined in the joint letter to the city; about 1,000 feet from the Ryther Child Center; and 1,500 feet from Sacajawea Elementary School.
That stretch of Lake City Way also hosted Rick’s strip club until it was closed by an FBI investigation. No further news on whether it might reopen as Chantal’s Gentleman’s Club.
I find it mind blowing that so many people have so much to say about this, as if it is then biggest worry in our lives.
Who goes to these strip clubs in suburbs to warrant the need to open more? I went to Centerfolds the other night and it was chock full of snaggle toothed gals dancing to two drunk guys, and someone who was either a pimp or the owner in the back. It doesn’t even compare to the clubs downtown who have attractive dancers and a clientele. Yet, these suburban strip clubs are all over 15th, 99, Lake City Way, etc. When people come to visit, it’s always bets to avoid any major street because they all make Seattle look like a slum. Seattle has more strip clubs than any city I’ve ever lived in (including NYC) and they are all pretty seedy.
And Btw, gun stores sell guns…to law abiding citizens. Criminals get them off the black market. Which means you’ll never stop them.
Next time your in your home in filthy lake city and someone breaks in, you’ll be running for a gun store the next day.
To the women that oppose this club, get a clue! (snicker). You’re ridiculous. But you can sleep better at night because you’ll know exactly where your husbands are now. I know ill be there!
I say “more strip clubs”!…and less pathetic women that spend their days on a community board opposing a strip club. Go spend time with your husbands!…while u still can!
I mean…we did just increase the unemployement rate when all the mob clubs were shut down…..
dancers need their jobs back and think of all the happy seniors that can just WALK across the street for a little fun lol
You can call me a prude till the cows come home, but as a woman and a feminist, I hate the sex industry wherever it pops up.
I guess I really don’t care whether or not I am being politically correct or not. Certain businesses bring in specific clientele….strip clubs, gun stores, ect. This isn’t spanaway and we do not need more of these types of business. Perception of the types of businesses near residential neighborhood impact property values and safety. As a nearby homeowner I am very much against this.
Here’s my problem with Pandora’s. It’s a half block from my house – which I have worked very hard to purchase, maintain and keep nice. Locating a strip club in my front yard (essentially) will cost me money in lowered property value. In this crappy economy, our property has already lost value- and it makes me angry that a business can open to just trash out the value of my home and investment. The strip club also brings a perception of sleeze to our block, and is embarrassing – Yes, I do in fact own a $450k house….across the street from a strip club. Perception matters, for pride in neighborhood, and for property values. I don’t care much about the morals of the place, but I’ll be pissed as hell at the drop in property value, and noise issues (Shanty already has its share…). Woe be the day that there’s a hooker turning tricks in a car in front of my house.
Dave et. al. – Reasonable people can disagree whether strip clubs are a good addition to a residential neighborhood. Some don’t mind it, others do. It makes for good conversations and page views for Maple Leaf Life, but that’s not the issue here.
The issue here is both the applicant and the city erred. The city erred in not following proper notification procedures required by the LR2 zoning. The applicant erred by not correctly identifying a Child Day Care Center within the 800-foot exclusionary zone. When the city’s Department of Planning and Development identified all possible parcels in Seattle where an adult cabaret could be located, this parcel was not on the list.
Like adult cabarets or don’t like them. Doesn’t matter. The facts are one should not have been permitted for this location.
David
For the record I have known several dancers and while they appreciated the money, they were constantly looking for another line of work where they wouldn’t be considered objects. Personally, I wouldn’t want a Hooters to move in there either and think less of them than strip clubs which are at least honest about what they are. Either way, the clubs do not increase the livability or desirablity of a neighborhood. If they did, they would be clamoring for them in Laurelhurst.
I came upon this piece that I found informative, tidbits such as the 15 year moritorium on strip clubs and that in 2003 there were only 3 in all of Seattle. http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/skimpy-evidence/Content?oid=15331
@ Dave Gill, I get the feeling you don’t live near the proposed strip club, though I could be wrong. What many are concerned about is property values, which WILL go down for those who happened to live nearby.
Sure some folks have moral issues regarding strip clubs but not all on this forum are ‘moral prudes’.
There is nothing wrong with Strip Clubs – just not close to residential areas.
+1 to Dave’s eloquent sentiments.
Well posted in deed Mr. Gill. By the way Mr. Miller, the City perspective as presented by the author of that piece is completely hedged with phrases like “may have” or ” it is believed”. See in the end it either is or it is not.
I’m pleased to know Dave Gill is a member of our community and am of like mind if not as well spoken…
well said, Dave Gill
I remember following, with only slight interest at the time, the city’s findings and discussion about the strip club ordinance. This has been going on a long time in Seattle. While the position and findings of the city quoted above are accurate as far as they go, they certainly are not necessarily an accurate representation of all the facts in the matter. But as was pointed out above, these findings are the basis of the law that is in place and that cannot be refuted.
I am a father of two girls. I live in Maple Leaf and have for 15 years. I am a part owner in a large business on Lake City Way. I will not name the business as my partners are not part of this discussion nor do they live in the neighborhood and I do not want to invite any repercussion against them from the sort of people whose bias and prejudice seems so apparent on this board. Suffice it to say it is a reputable business having nothing to do with the matter of discussion here.
I have by chance met two exotic dancers since I have lived here. Both are good people, one a single woman, the other a single mother, living like anybody else in our diverse community trying to make ends meet and doing the best they can. They are not criminals, they are supporting themselves honestly. Talking with them gave me a different perspective on this issue and made me realize the scorn and disdain they were treated with by others in our community such as those who have posted here.
I have no intention of using the services of any “gentleman’s club” and can’t say I’ve stepped foot in one since a 1970’s bachelor party I once attended in SF. Definitely not my thing. My only interest in this matter is standing up for the rights of others and against the sort of bigotry apparent on this board.
In the end, my interest in this matter is to help my community to avoid bias and bigotry. I want my family to live in a community where fairness, openness, respect and reason are valued above personal prejudice, and where reasoned discussion is valued above mere opinion.
Dan go to http://www.pandorascabaret.com, that is just about what the sign will look like.
Susan, I will be most likely be living there anyway as it is. When my children are old enough they also may be working there, if they choose to. Of course like all parents I would hope they pursue a higher education.
What I want to know Joe, is why don’t you put the club in your neighborhood? Then you could walk to work.
Maybe Joe can be talked into having a sign that comes off more as classy than garish? I’m thinking of like the one at The Sands in Ballard on 15th rather than the Deja View one in Lake City.
That city quote about the increased noise because of sirens is funny, given that the old folks home across the street has brought in the daily sound of sirens from ambulances and firetrucks, as well as an occasional alarm on the back door we have to call in and report that they can’t seem to hear when it’s triggered by a resident trying to escape. I figure that kind of noise is just part of living in the city.
Concerned – The quote is direct from a City of Seattle document, which I hoped the quotes and citation made clear. It was posted not to refute anything, but provide the City’s own perspective.
Joe – Check your email.
I would love to come to such a meeting if it occurs. Since you have worked in the industry for 27 years I would like to know more about you. Can you provide information so I may research, I’m finding literally hundreds of Joe Walkers. I would find this more informative than the generic effects of a strip club.
As the owner of Pandora’s, I would appreciate an opportunity to meet with both the Wedgewood Community Council and the Maple Leaf Community Council to address any and all concerns each may have regarding the impact on the surrounding neighborhoods.
Having worked in the adult business here in Seattle for the last 27 years I am well aware of both the real and imagined effects this business can have.
Thank you for your time
Joe Walker
I would rather have a tatoo parlor. Some of them are pretty cool like Slave to the Needle in Wallingford and Ballard.
Sue – I am completely neutral on the strip club and after all I believe that is what this blog post is about. It’s true peoples perception does influence outcomes which is unfortunate. Perception is not fact – it is someone’s opinion. The City of Seattle is an organization that is managed by people. The City is not all knowing, hence the hedging the author did in that piece.
Wow, settle down concerned. The author was the city of Seattle, which legally speaking, is the bottom line. If you think peoples perception carries no weight you would be wrong. You also have chosen to edit/copy the document to defend your position.
David – I have read your edit/copy, which I assume you have posted as an defense of your position in your exchange with Mr. Gill. I am struck by the frequent use of phrases like “may have” or “there is some evidence” or “it is believed”. I would be careful with the partial use of a document where the author is less certain of the outcome than you apparently are.
Mr. Gill — From the City of Seattle:
“One impact is the relative, negative effect that an adult cabaret may have on the value of nearby property. Preservation of property values is a recognized purpose of zoning. Because evidence suggests that the negative effect on property values is likely to be greater when the adult cabaret is located in or near a residential area, the zoning recommended here would not allow new adult cabarets to be located in zones where general residential uses are permitted.
“Another set of land use impacts that adult cabarets may have is upon the perception of neighborhood character. For example, signs for adult cabarets are often sexually graphic and garish, and considered incompatible with residential neighborhoods, especially near schools or parks where children are present. And because adult cabarets are often busiest at night, noise from patrons entering or leaving the cabarets or in parking lots, and noise from police or emergency vehicles, can disrupt the peace and quiet that is desired in a residential area.
“There is some evidence that the presence of adult cabarets corresponds to increased levels of crime in an area, including sex-related crimes such as prostitution. In addition, because alcohol is not served inside adult cabarets, and recreational drugs are illegal, it is believed that consumption of alcohol and drugs occurs in adult cabaret parking lots or on adjacent public streets. These criminal activities are particularly problematic and incompatible with residential uses.”
— City of Seattle “City Council’s Findings and Analysis” March 10, 2006.
Rick’s was run by criminals, hence the crime.
There is no empirical evidence that strip clubs bring crime into an area, it is more often the case the strip clubs are relegated to crime ridden areas and then are guilty by association. Classic Catch-22.
Alcohol has been involved in more crime and violence than any strip club, whether it is served in “everyday restaurants” or elsewhere. It is far more likely that if crime is what you mean to avoid or reduce, asking all the bars and restaurants in Lake City, Maple Leaf and Wedgewood stop serving alcohol would be more effective.
Puritanical mores are evident in the posts on this subject: “a tacky business “, “low rent divey businesses”, “a tattoo parlor or something low rent like that”, “we have enough problems WIHOUT inviting that element in”. All clearly moral judgments on the people that work and frequent these clubs.
And the fact that some of the people posting are not aware of the fact that alcohol cannot be served in these clubs just belies the prejudice and ignorance of some on the issue.
The thing about strip clubs is they typically bring a lot of extra problems with them (just read the history of crimes related directly and indirectly to Rick’s). Strip clubs tend to attract organized crime, prostitution, etc. Not every club, of course, but that is indeed usually the case.
The service of tequila at a licensed restaurant is very difficult to compare to a strip club. Apples and oranges. Not all “vices” are the same.
If the strip-club owners open it up… and by the book… then sobeit. If they are bending the rules then of course they shouldn’t be allowed to open. My two cents is I DON’T want it in my backyard. Yes, you heard me right, NIMBY!!
@Dave Gill
Well said!
Lake City way is trying to improve its image and become a more liveable area. Adding strip clubs does not improve the image nor make the area more liveable.
I believe that due process should be followed in zoning this club. But I believe that many posting here really don’t care what due process is followed as long as this club is not allowed and any amount of due process that allows this club top be opened will not satisfy them.
It was only a few weeks ago that the opening of a new restaurant in the community that prominently advertised tequila as its primary product was celebrated here, even though alcohol consumption is a far greater scourge in our community than strippers. But because drinking alcohol is acceptable little outrage was voiced. Now a club which will serve no alcohol but has naked women dancing for patrons has the neighbors up in arms. I find this hypocritical.
The idea that children and families will be negatively affected by the presence of naked women behind closed doors to be absurd. The idea that strippers, their employers and their customers are by nature criminal is also absurd and deeply prejudiced. I find the objections puritanical and sex-negative. This thinking is part-and-parcel with the anti-gay forces in our society. I look forward to a day when people will stop judging others by their sexuality and sexual expression.
Couple-three things:
* The now-defunct Rick’s is 1.3 miles (i.e., a 2-minute drive) north on Lake City Way.
* It’s actually the Rick’s location where “Chantal’s Gentleman’s Club” might go. Seven Seas gets Pandora’s.
* I’m unaware of any missing comments on this thread, and there are none in our comments “trash.” It may be you are thinking of comments at our sister site, Wedgwood View, where this conversation is also continuing:
http://www.wedgwoodview.com/2011/06/21/community-councils-say-city-improperly-permited-strip-club-city-says-they%E2%80%99re-wrong/#comments
– Maple Leaf Life
I believe that
sorry, we have enough problems WIHOUT inviting that element in. And Rick’s in out in Lake City whereas the proposed “gentlemen’s club” (snicker) is right between Maple Leaf and Wedgwood. It’s just kind of embarrassing – “yes, drive past the Shanty Tavern and the strip club and there you are in Wedgwood.”
Rick’s was nowhere near the Shanty/Seven Seas. That stretch of Lake City Way runs between Maple Leaf and Wedgwood. The neighborhood has a lot of very nice homes in it and the Shanty Tavern is now a live music venue on Friday and Saturday nights. Did the Planning Dept. realize that? It’s not a good use for the neighborhood which, by the way, is a quiet most single family and condo area. We have enough existing problems with inviting that element into the neighborhood. I have no problem with strip clubs but must they be in a residential neighborhood. Please remember, patrons, that you may be on Lake City Way but you’re in the middle of a very well established middle class neighborhood.
I wonder what happened to the other comments that were posted this morning? How odd. Not supportive of the strip club mostly. Interesting that they all disappeared.
Bravo to the MLCC and WWCC for pursuing this. A day care doesn’t need to have a sign out front to count; the day care is properly licensed and registered in this case. The applicant would have easily found the day care listed online if they had bothered to do a simple search on city databases, as indeed they are required to by law before applying for the permit.
The DPD is taking a pretty ballsy stance saying nothing can be done after the fact. No court will side with DPD on this one. The permit was issued improperly, period, and it will ultimately be rescinded.
@Dan:
I agree with your comments. I am also torn between allowing people and businesses the freedom to cater to supply and demand within the letters of the law and wanting to maintain a classy and livable neighborhood. Although the term classy is typically not associated with Lake City Way.
Your point about drinking is a good one. It’s interesting to think about if you put the strip club aspect aside. Most people wouldn’t have an issue if it was a bar, yet the chances of drunk driving accidents occurring from people leaving a late night establishment that serves alcohol and one that doesn’t has to be much higher. That being said, I love and am a frequent patron of local Maple Leaf bars. I just have the luxury of living within walking distance and don’t have to worry about driving.
I fully support the MLCC in ensuring that the laws were followed during the permitting process. I just hope that the real reason all this “fuss” is occurring is to enforce the law and not some peoples moral opinions on strip clubs.
I’m torn on this issue. I definitely think Sue’s right that we should fight for the public process and adherence to rules. Although I question whether there really is a violation here, I live on the closest Maple Leaf street to this new strip club (20th) and I have never seen any signs of even a home childcare center nearby.
I also complain about the nanny state and NIMBY attitudes, so even as the closest homeowner to this new club and someone who would feel more adverse effects from it, if there are any, than the rest of you, I don’t want to give into those NIMBY or nanny attitudes.
I also have a hard time seeing this as much of a downgrade from the alcoholic’s lounge that was there before sending totally wasted drunk drivers out onto Lake City Way every night. I grabbed a drink at the Seven Seas one night and a super drunk older guy staggered out, got into his car, and then promptly ran into the the building before driving away. Woops, wrong gear! That’s what kind of a classy joint was there. If you ever went there, you know. If you didn’t, it was a hardcore drinking bar serving super strong drinks to often already over-served people.
http://lawoftheland.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/fed-dist-court-finds-seattle-adult-use-licensing-ordinance-violates-first-amendment-due-to-lack-of-written-time-frame-for-review-but-that-dispersal-ordinance-is-constitutional/
A must read!!!
Fighting for public process and adherence to the rules has no down side in my opinion. Keep in mind businesses have lawyers and department of planning that guides them to every loophole that exists. The rest of us are just trying to find a way to keep it real. There is so much out there that maybe fits the letter but not the intent. Fighting to keep our neighborhoods liveable for ourself and the generation to come is a full time job. I’m with you MLCC!
You can buy smokes, alcohol, a fake tan, guns and cheap fat within our neighborhood boundries or within walking distance of ML- all of which can kill you/yours – but don’t try to look at an adult with their clothes off in a windowless building on Lake City Way… Strip clubs are sad places, but these nanny state activities are inconsistent and don’t make sense.
I also find it interesting that saving Waldo is the only example of MLCC “success” referenced. Waldo is now a total dump and a top two eye sore in Maple Leaf… If Waldo is the highlight on the MLCC resume, they haven’t accomplished much.
Awesome job MLCC. Thank you.
Thank you David! I oppose this club and appreciate you and the council making the owner and the city follow the rules.
That’s a good question worth addressing, at least from the personal opinion of this MLCC Executive Board member. I was elected to the MLCC Executive Board in 2005, 2006, 2008, and 2010. I’ve lived in the neighborhood for 15 years. I have received literally thousands of emails on various issues from Maple Leaf residents. I’ve talked to hundreds of Maple Leaf residents. Most (but not all) our Executive Board members can say the same thing.
When serving on the MLCC’s Executive Board, I feel a responsibility to represent and assist Maple Leaf residents even if I don’t personally agree with them. It isn’t about what I think, necessarily, it is about what the people who live and own businesses here think. That’s the deal you take when you stand for election to our Executive Board.
One reason the MLCC always insists on public comment where the law indicates it is required (as in this situation) is it helps *US* understand where the community is at. When DPD incorrectly decided to not hold public comment as required by the LR2 zoning, they robbed you, me, and the entire community the opportunity to have our voices heard.
It is a tricky balance, I will admit. My email inbox and the conversations I have in the community shows the MLCC Executive Board has had it right WAY more often than we’ve had it wrong in our 25-year history.
Hope that helps,
David
Why are these comunity councils not representing the members of the community who do not oppose the club?
Thanks, David. I’ve added a link to the text of today’s joint letter from the councils and The Stratford, which might help.
For it’s part, the only mistake the Maple Leaf Community Council says DPD made is not providing notice prior to issuance of the permit. Notice is required for any adult cabaret going in on a parcel zoned “LR2”. Part of the parking lot and nearly half the parcel is zoned LR2 according to city records.
The permit applicant provided incomplete and inaccurate information to the city concerning the existence of a “legally established” and “permitted” Child Day Care Center (the State’s term) within 800 feet. When an applicant provides incomplete, misleading, and/or inaccurate information to the city in a permit application, several sections of the Seattle Municipal Code make clear the permit should be recinded and the process restarted.
The code itself and DPD’s description of it when it was passed require the day care be legally established and/or permitted. This day care is both.
In addition, it isn’t that MLCC “doesn’t want to name” the daycare. We’re just trying to be sensitive to this Maple Leaf business owner and the parents of kids who receive care there. This issue has obviously attracted media interest and we felt discretion was the best approach.